V5113 Sgr = Nova Sgr 2003 No. 2

(Bernerd Heathcote's CCD image)

(Raquel Shida's CCD image on Sep 20.002 UT)

The complete history of Nova Sgr 2003 No. 2 on VSNET

Information on 2003 September 19:

(vsnet-discovery-nova 260)

No positional information has been received. Please watch the forthcoming news.

Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 23:32:18 -0400
From: "W.Liller" 
Subject: new object - possible nova - in Sgr
Hola everyone -

New object confirmed; CCDV magnitude through thin cirrus = 8.9 at 02:43 Sept 19 U.T.

Am exposing a red spectrogram even as I write.  More tomorrow.  All the
best,  Bill Liller

(vsnet-campaign-nova 1455)

Previous messages in this thread
(on V2573 Oph = Nova Oph 2003):
[1442] [1444] [1445] [1447] [1449] [1451] [1453] [1454]

Preceding thread messages
(V4745 Sgr = Nova Sgr 2003, discovered by N. Brown):
[1434: Brown's own message]
[1435: dated on Sep. 16, just preceding Brown's next discovery!]

> What is this fuss about discovering novae all about? It seems to me 
> pretty straightforward. The first one to recognize a new object as a 
> nova and reporting it as such to the IAU, is the discoverer of the nova. 
> Someone who only realizes after the discovery that the object on his 
> prediscovery pictures is a nova, cannot claim to be an independent 
> discoverer. He can only claim that he has prediscovery pictures. This is 
> not unique. There are often pre-discovery pictures of novae.
For intensive nova searchers (not restricted to Vello or someone else), "independent discovery" and "prediscovery detection" are totally different things. The difference between them may be even larger than a difference between a nova and a non-nova variable star ;-).

And, what is more important to astronomy is, that this differentiation has been one of the most stringent reasons why nova discovery announcements are usually so delayed. The claimed reason for such a delay is, as is often heard from nova searchers, is "not to hinder other people's independent discoveries". This would sound like noble altruism, but clever people like you can surely understand what this statement would imply when the case is reverse (i.e. the discovery was made by a different person). Such a "game theory" would maximize the number of independent discoveries, but _at the expense of_ (otherwise feasible) early observations. Even worse, this strategy has been even (either explicitly or implicitly) endorsed by some of the professional community like the CBAT. We now have a very good timely example of "possible Nova in Sgr". As glimpsed from the available material, the things are in progress behind the scenes for the last several hours, and I would expect the discoverer is someone we are well acquainted with -- not a word has been directly heard from the discoverer. I would even expect in a forthcoming IAUC or CBET confimatory data or identification by e.g. Hitoshi Yamaoka or Brian Skiff, or some equivalent professional. They are forbidden to relay information under the name of masked "noble altruism". Anyway, things will become obvious within hours, a day, or more(?)

This is another reason why I am tempted to endorse real-time nova detection alerts from ASAS-3 or other automated telescopes; such alerts will not only dramatically improve the early-stage nova science, but also dramatically improve the present situation from a different side.

Taichi Kato

(vsnet-discovery-nova 261)

Re: new object - possible nova - in Sgr

Katsumi Haseda just informed that he did not detect a new object (effectively north of -25 deg) upon retrospective examination of his September 18 survey photographs.

Taichi Kato

(vsnet-discovery-nova 262)

Why is no position given? Even a rough location would have been good enough for me to confirm a bright nova. I am out here in the mid-Pacific area, ideal location to follow-up. Now will have to wait 24hours???

Mike Linnolt

(vsnet-discovery-nova 263)

I amfraid Bill was just busy and/or tired therefore he missed to mention any data regarding position.

Waiting for the morning in Chile....

Best wishes,

Fidusz (FIDRICH Robert)

(vsnet-discovery-nova 264)

Bill was (most likely) not the discoverer, but simply made a confirmatory observation upon request from someone else. The request was most likely from Elizabeth O. Waagen (according to Bill's mail): she must know the coordinates. Please let us know them when you get them from the AAVSO :-) For your interest, the other recipients were Dan Green and Raquel Shida.

Taichi Kato

Private message from Berto Monard:

Re: [vsnet-discovery-nova 264] Re: possible nova - in Sgr

perhaps Yamaoka-san knows...

I think you know too ;-)



Berto, you guessed right :-) see IAUC 8204. The above and following messages were instataneously relayed to Yamaoka-san without any replies...

Reply to Berto:

> I think you know too ;-)

No, I don't. Not a single word from Yamaoka-san. If he knows the position, he didn't relay it for fear that I will immediately make it public ;-).

Taichi Kato

Information after 2003 September 19, 15h UT:

(These two messages arrived before the IAUC announcement; but were unfortunately not immediately relayed because they arrived at my personal address when I am away from the office. Thanks to Bill! You look like to be more faithful to science than our nearby researchers ;-)

(vsnet-discovery-nova 265)

Hola everyone -

A more thorough reduction gives for Brown's new object in Sgr =

YYYYMMDD(UT)   mag  observer    Comments

20030919.1035   8.91    Liller  CCDV   +/- 0.05
20030919.1056   9.79    Liller  CCDB   +/- 0.15     ( B-V = 0.88 +/- 0.17 )
All observations through thin cirrus clouds. Eight TYCHO stars used for standards.

A grating spectrum with dispersion 7.8 A/pixel shows a prominent H-alpha emission with a peak approximately 2.3 times brighter than the surrounding continuum. The measured FWHM of this line is 550 km/sec. A narrow P-Cygni absorption appears to be present and shifted 590 km/sec towards the blue.

Nothing is visible to mag 11.5 on a red film taken on Sept. 13.12 U.T.

There can be no doubt that this is a nova. Congratulations Nick !

All the best to all, Bill Liller

(vsnet-discovery-nova 266)

Hola everybody -

Forgive me ! I'm sorry that I didn't include the coordinates to the "Brown nova" in Sgr. I'm usually the last person to know, so I assumed everyone knew already. If you don't have them yet, they are

        (2000) R.A. = 18h 10m 13s,   Dec. = -27d 45' 39"
These are the coordinates sent to me by Waagen at the AAVSO and were supplied by the discoverer Nick Brown.

Note that the nova is close to a 12th mag star, GSC 6851 1342.

All the best to all, Bill Liller

IAUC No. 8204 was issued at around Sep. 19, 15:52 UT

The AAVSO isseud an AAVSO NEWSFLASH SPECIAL NOTICE at around Sep. 19, 17:45 UT, stating that "We have been informed by the IAU Central Bureau for Astronomical Telegrams (IAU Circular 8204) of the discovery of a nova in Sagittarius by Nicholas Brown, Quinns Rocks, W. Australia...". Yes, as everyone would understand, the AAVSO had been already informed of the discovery before the IAUC was issued. It is a pity that a number of AAVSO observers must have missed chance of early observation due to this delay at the AAVSO.

(vsnet-campaign-nova 1459)

I just updated my novae page with the details on nova Sgr 2003 No. 2 http://hometown.aol.com/dwest61506/page87.html .

Doug West

(vsnet-campaign-nova 1460)

Subject: Nova Sgr 2003-2 position

IAUC 8204 informed the discovery of Nova Sgr 2003-2. The position of the object is:

18:10:10.42, -27:45:35.2 (J2000.0).

There is a neighbouring star (UCmag = 11.82) at the position end figures 10s.430, 42".84 (from UCAC-1 catalog). It is located only 8" from the nova.

Sincerely Yours,
Hitoshi Yamaoka, Kyushu Univ., Japan

ASAS-3 data

ASAS-3 data:

(Nova Sgr 2003 No. 2 detected on the rise: ASAS-3 images, by courtesy of G. Pojmanski)


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